Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? This is probably the best option for all involved. Yes, Christiane, thats precisely how it works. He was also arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his two minor children who were with him in the car. Is there still a scar? There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. I realize that you and I may not ever come to a point of complete agreement. Today, Stephen Nichols and Mrs. Vesta Sproul talk about the vision behind RBC 10 years after its founding. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. Excellent comment, Linn. Velour wrote: I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). As a matter of fact, when a denomination refuses to ordain a particular person, that person can go start his own *denomination* and set himself up as its bishop and be quite successful at so doing. I stand corrected. ^ ^ f .o 1 *> * .V n ..V * ,G O *. Its beyond sin. The majority of pastors, elders, deacons, church counselors, and church staff in general arent qualified to give counseling of any kind on any subject (even the Bible sometimes), even though they often presume they are. I would advise caution. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. im very sorry you had to go through that. Its a much more complicated issue than that. They used to believe that high power lines caused brain tumors. Sproul 2s drinking. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. UPDATE: Please note, I have removed and exchanged the original statement which was posted below by request of the author. That was great for the money I was paid, but the dad would be so drunk, he could hardly keep the car on the road (forget about the correct lane) as he took me home. Have to agree. Provisions have also been made in order to detect error, sin, falsehood and the demonstration of improper behavior within the body of Christ believers. Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. Sproul Jr.s history, he has been terribly abusive to people and whole families and he has caused a great deal of damage. Will this 501(c)3 religious professional be held accountable for his use of improper judgement and child care endangerment? I have experience. Okay, maybe a little anger too. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. They see insult where none was intended, and are quick to react and hurl barbs and insults in retaliation. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. I dont wish hell on RC Sprouls jr or any other alcoholic but I can guarantee you that their children have been through hell. I dont think barbara was making a medical argument, though. I wouldnt blame you. Mine was a quiet conversion-I thought a lot about what I was hearing and reading, and through Gods kindness to me and the prompting of the Spirit, came to faith. Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. However, aswe noted previously,Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. Haha. Velour wrote: I am no longer on that drug. Odds are high theyll just make a bad situation worse. @ Max: She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. The Steve Hassen Youtube link helps explain that. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) Why does someone have to specifically endorse treatment for someone or something in order to confirm in your mind that they are not anti-treatment? If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. It appears that the message is that if we allow someone to that has no intention of repenting to go on like business as usual, we are NOT helping the person and it sends the wrong message to others. Dr. R.C. Have you taken a DNA test? No, they dont take those kinds of positions. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. Thank you for explaining your editorial views about the word codependent. Jeff I hear you. And the pile-on. If you had ever lost a loved one to alcoholism ( Ive lost two ) you would know that entire families can spend every waking minute and all of their financial resources to try to help and get help for their alcoholic family member resulting in failure after devastating failure . Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. Edit Search New Search Filters (1) To get better results, add more information such as Birth Info, Death Info and Locationeven a guess will help. Sproul, Jr., has done harm to many, including his own children. Please keep our nations decision makers in prayer over the next few weeks. Murder is a crime. Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Telling me that I cant respond to other people here who post comments to me. Trying to save children from the hell of an actively alcoholic parent is a good thing. The mental/audio equivalent of Beer Goggles. But I would have thought a non-alcoholic can always go without alcohol: that is, its an issue of choice and control. Have child protection services been properly notified and satisfied? For those who care about womens issues it was an all female surgical team. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. from her years of alcohol abuse. Actually, their chirping is far more natural and more beautiful than the cash register at the book store. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA. One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Not everyone has a spiritual gift to deal with these issues. @ Barbara Roberts: Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. A man with enough of a track record to be REJECTED by the Presbyterian Church in America when he sought to have his ordination accepted there as a Teaching Elder and opted to go the micro denom route. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. So it makes it very difficult to believe theres anything genuine about it now. Granted, some of the help I found in my research was written by other M.H.P.s, but I had to find their material on my own and figure out if, when, and how to apply it to myself. I am sorry for the pain of alcoholism in your family and your losses to that disease. Im talking about the loss of time with real friends who are still my friends. Your post seems not to understand this, but if I have misinterpreted you, please correct me. Ive been a ligonier for years . they simply enjoy all kinds of beverages because they pleasurable. Why? Celebrate Recovery does not advocate divorce. Why are you addressing that to me? @ okrapod: Alcohol can kill, it can ruin marriages and finances and it's a waste of Gods finances but that is all my personal opinion. ) I think what I am trying yo say is each person stands before God on his/her own.were we guilty of our sons choices,? No one can make him do that. No. So I am left with confusion. I lost a number of friends in high school who didnt. it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; Right. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). I do know that covering up their behavior is as destructive as buying them booze and could end up with somebody dead. He was 78. Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. Purge the evil person from among you.. You can be sure that Barbara, Dee, and I sit on a lot of information that never gets released to the public. He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. Velour wrote: One thing I have observed if you let it, life revolves around the alcoholic! My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. Drunk driver got Vehicular Manslaughter (if not outright Murder) added to his DUI. Anyway, some of the stuff I discovered is that AA (and groups similar to it) have a high failure rate. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: For Sproul Jr. to only get probation and no prison term must have been the result of having a good lawyer. Intervention only works when the abuser is willing to submit to a program. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. @ Velour: It makes me very sad that a gathering place like this, which seems to be a collection of misfits and wounded sheep (like me) cant do any better than this. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. How can it possibly not be idolatry to not hold accountable leadership in the church? Unless dad helped him in starting his own churches. If so, login to add it. Albert Mohler is a Social Justice Warrior, make no mistake about it. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. accrue great personal financial gain from donors, or This may or may not be good advice in some cases, but it is certainly not a rule of thumb in that it assumes that the prior trauma caused the current bad behavior of hurting people and assumes that the person cannot help it when they hurt other people, and assumes that some prior trauma is a life time get out of jail free card for when the alleged victim of prior trauma may continue to hurt people. RC2 as an intelligent child and adolescent would learn to leverage that, and then we are off to the races toward where we are now. Velour wrote: And FWIW as an RN I did mostly OB except for one year in public health with my little black bag in the slums of my home town. H.A. . 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